data logger

[Fast Eddie]

I dont know if this is where i should put this Question, but.....

Does anyone in the Toronto area have a pocketlogger/datalogger? And if so, could i use it pretty please? :)

I dont think that anyone does, but just checking.

How about we get one as a group? everyone chip in a bit, and we will all have use of it. I would gladly pay $30 to find out exactly what is going on in my engine.

Huh, whatcha think?

[Fast Eddie]

This could also work with a G-tech to measure our performance, but i think datalogger would be more valuable.

[Diablo]

I'd be willing to chip in as well....
I also have a palm3 I never use any more, if we wanted to go the Palmlogger route.

[Fast Eddie]

Dag Nabbit!

i just bought a palm on ebay. :mad: Literally 1.5 hours ago....
Oh well it was only $40, now all we need is the software and plug thingy. - $150 US.

Now is the time to do it. The canadian dollar is the strongest against the US it has been in like 15 years. Not going to find a better time to buy from the states.

here are the capabilities:
http://www.pocketlogger.com/?page=prod

[Diablo]

Aaron, email me about this....I have some ideas that we should discuss privately...

[turbosarebetter]

If you guys want a 3rd person for it I'm in :)

[turbosarebetter]

http://www.3si.org/portal/forums/showthread.php?threadid=109452

Check that out too. You can buy just the cable for $60, and I'm sure the software could be tracked down.


Or you can get both the software and cables for $130 here http://www.pptracing.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=19

[Diablo]

It would be a great idea....if only there werent so many complaints as to the cable being a dud.
If they got the bugs out, I'd have no problem with buying the kit, and renting out the software a la Blockbuster for eval purposes only for $15-20. or so each to help re-coup my investment.

[Fast Eddie]

Ya i read that and everyone is bitching about the companies quality AND service. I dont know...The regular one is only 20 bucks more for the cable and software. If the thing is defective when we get it, it will prob. cost $20 just in shipping back and forth to get fixed.

Anyway, i had a different point. check this out. explains every function. "pocketlogger for dummies" :)

just click on the functions on the palmpilot:

http://www.hywell.org/plhelp/

[Fast Eddie]

Here is the same thread that Shane posted earlier. its 20 pages long now, and i think by the end, now someone is selling kits to make the cable ($35). or fully assembled for $50. if someone wants to go through the post and see exactly what you are getting for that, it would be great. (my computer takes forever to load these pages)

Also, where can we get a 'backup' copy of the software?

Or there is the tried-and-true official pocketlogger cable/software....

What do you guys think?

[Fast Eddie]

oops, here is the linnk:

http://www.3si.org/portal/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=109452&highlight=pocketlogger

[ShdwMastr]

I'm also looking for a cheaper solution to datalogging... just want it to diagnose probs, get some stats etc.

155.00USD is killer for us canadians! (from pocketlogger) I guess if i do buy, i'll wait for the 3si specfic version to be released.

Stumbled across this link on 3si: http://206.124.12.138/freeware.html

freeware datalogger, just need the cable! Not sure how accurate it is however, worth a shot! Interface not as pretty as pocketlogger buy hey, its free right?

[Fast Eddie]

cant get that link working yet, but im at work...

Anyway here are the conversations ive had so far with Mike from Digital Tuning. He created the pocketlogger.

" I have a '93 Stealth RT/TT and am ready to purchase a cable/software. I found this in your FAQ: "It also works on 90-93 3000GT/ Stealth. There are some parameter scaling
issues with the 3/S cars which will be addressed in the next release. "
Could you please tell me the "parameter scaling issues " and also when you expect these to be remedied. Thank you Aaron Kealey"

his answer:


Timing on the 3kGT reads a little high.

Should be fixed by the end of the month..



Regards,
Mike Montalvo
digital tuning, inc.
www.pocketlogger.com

[Fast Eddie]

"Thanks Mike,

Is it a hardware or software issue? Reason being, i am wondering if i order it now, and it is a software problem, could you send me the updated version when i becomes available? Without having to pay for an 'upgrade' 30 days after i purchase it.
Aaron"

-------------------------------------------



"We have never charged for an upgrade.

The fix will come in the next major release (due this month). This will be released as "Donationware".


Regards,
Mike Montalvo
digital tuning, inc.
www.pocketlogger.com"

[Fast Eddie]

Hi Mike,
Sorry but i have 2 more questions. I just want to be clear on everything.
I have a 1993 Stealth TT, and your site lists your "for DSM" as supporting the 93 Stealth/3000GT plug. the TMO site states that "it appears that Mitsubishi changed the ECU
diagnostics plug to an OBDII-style trapezoidal plug in 93"

Just to clear the confusion, will your DSM plug fit the 93 stealth?

Also could you please explain your term "donationware" and how i would access that to upgrade when the new release comes out.

Thanks Mike,
Aaron Kealey

---------------------------------

93's do not have the OBDII style plug. The 94-95 so-called "hybrid" has
the OBDII plug. I don't know why TMO has that on their site..

If you want to be sure, check for the connector near the fuse box.

Check this page for pics
http://www.pocketlogger.com/instructions/install.html

As far as donation ware, if I charged for it, I'd have a lot of angry
customers, and if I raised the price as well to new customers, they wouldn't
be happy either. So donation ware means it's free, but if you would like to
donate to support us, that is your option. (A customer actually suggested we
make it donation ware)


If you have any questions, feel free to contact us.

[ShdwMastr]

Direct links...

The link above has an old link to the software which has an annoying register notice.

Use the following instead:

Palm Software (http://206.124.12.138/codsm/tunerstein/webpage/download/pnstein.zip)

Instructions (http://206.124.12.138/codsm/tunerstein/webpage/4.1/palm%27n%27stein.html)

I find that the website is very unreliable.. afternoons it's usually better.

[Fast Eddie]

IS this the actual program, or just a "demo"?

[ShdwMastr]

It's the real thing, I have installed it on my palm already, and it works just fine.. comes up as "already registered"

[Fast Eddie]

great, now all we need are cables.
(we could possibly do this all for $35 :) )

i have some questions in for this guy, waiting for him to respond....

http://www.3si.org/portal/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130656&perpage=15&pagenumber=1

[ShdwMastr]

I have been watching that thread as well :)

That cable sounds great! "Auto-On" feature is a great bonus! And the free software from above we can be datalogging for a reasonable price!

Perhaps we can arrange for a "canadian" group buy.. now is a good time to think about it since our dollar is worth more atm.

I'm awaiting for him to post pics/build instructions (if you just buy the parts)...

[Malice]

A buddy of mine has obd2 plugs and cables for datalogging. He won't give them to me, but I may be able to borrow them for a weekend. They are for his laptop (which there isn't a chance of me getting), but they may also work on a palm.

If I can't borrow them, he is cool with helping with cars, and knows a lot about turbo cars. He has a pretty large interest in the 3s also, so we may be able to do a wrench weekend with him, and tune some cars. :)

[Fast Eddie]

im pretty sure you need to put an adaptor on the plug to make it compatible with the palm female connection. Just what ive heard though.

Thats good news for anyone with a 94+. If you can get someone that can bring along a laptop, and you get a disk with the software, you guys are all set :)

And a wrench weekend sounds good. Does he have a shop?

Also does anyone know of a good area to do some logs when all this shopping is over and done with? we need an area where we can go WOT to 3rd gear.... i dont remember what speed i top out in third, but i have seen 120km/h on my shift out of second, so we are going to need a looong empty stretch of blacktop. :confused:

[Malice]

My buddy doesn't have a shop, but he does have a heated barn at his place and a nice one at his parents.

Both of them are out in the boonies, so there are a number of good long straights for some high end runs.

I will talk to him and see if he is up for it. He is a busy guy, and I don't like speaking for people, so I can't make any promises. But I will try.

[Fast Eddie]

The guy selling the cables says that his order page should be up today or tomorrow, and that he will send me the cable now, and the OBDI plug when they come in. Will still work without the plug, but not as convenient.
I have the software for laptop (tmo) and palm (Tunerstein), just need the cable to come in and we are all set.

[Scott_93TT]

Originally posted by Fast Eddie
The guy selling the cables says that his order page should be up today or tomorrow, and that he will send me the cable now, and the OBDI plug when they come in. Will still work without the plug, but not as convenient.
I have the software for laptop (tmo) and palm (Tunerstein), just need the cable to come in and we are all set.

Awesome... I'd like to see about getting one of those cables. I've got ahold of that software, and I have a palm lying around.

Too bad the TMO is supposed to be so much better, but...

[Fast Eddie]

I ordered up the cable today. I guess i will be the guinea pig. If it works out well, he said he would be very open to a group buy.

Now all we have to do is sit back and wait :)

[Scott_93TT]

Nice...

What is he charging for the cable???

[turbosarebetter]

ya I want one too! :D

[Scott_93TT]

I remember you were really looking for one last year Crazykid.

You can certainly make good use out of one, with all your mods!:D

(going to be at Yorkdale on Sunday?)

[Fast Eddie]

Cable is in. Male/Male adapter has been purchased. And im going to go and fuss with it tonight.... If i can sort out this Tunerstien software. :confused:

[Scott_93TT]

Any word as of yet?
Just got back from Arizona and am excited to hear!!!

[Fast Eddie]

Im working on it right now. turning into a big headache.
a standard gender converter cant be used to connect the laptop cable to a palm. i had to rewire pin connections from serial port to serial port and now i am getting connections and readings, but they just constantly cycle up and down from 40 to 0 and back. dont know if its software or hardware? and i cant use my old mans laptop either. i copy the software onto a floppy disk and bring it to the laptop. it only has a CDROM. so i go and burn a CD and bring it back to the laptop. it cant read it. home computer reads it fine. I call my comp programmer friend to find out how to hardwire the computers together to transfer data. he looks at it and it cant be done. Arghhh! :angry:

Waiting to get news back from the seller on what he thinks.

My next post will be with a log file attached, if it kills me.

[Scott_93TT]

Damn, that sucks....

I guess I didn't realize that this was a cable designed for a laptop and not a Palm.

That means extra work, as you said, to convert the connectors.

As for the SW issues, damn...

I'm glad you are looking into this, 'cause you're good with this stuff :)

[Fast Eddie]

well the thing is, he said i could use it for both. he recommended the laptop cable because it has the screws to keep it connected securely. what he didnt mention is that pin 2 and 3 are swapped and you have to buy his 'special' adaptor to make the transition. which he hasnt even built yet. I shouldent harp on him too much, he has been really helpful in trying to solve it, and he feels bad about the miscommunication, but im still standing here with a half-working cable. anyway, im going to find a way to get the software onto that laptop and forget all this custom fiddling.

I guess i lied, my next post didnt have a log file attached :(

[Scott_93TT]

I see, but I'd rather have it for the Palm.
Much easier in general. I don't want to have to lug around my Ltop all the time, plus I like the look of some of the custom Palm installs on 3si.

Oh well.

I wouldn't worry about the lie ;)

[Fast Eddie]

Alright, here we go. The replacement cable came in and i also downloaded a little program the seller made, just to test if there is a proper connection to the vehicle. hook it all up to my palm, and go out and plug it into the diag. port. fire up the palm and open the connection program. YIPEE! connection found and I am told my car is turbo with federal emissions (as opposed to Cali. emissions). alright so lets open up Palm'N'Stein and start logging.... WTF? Now every time i try to open the programm there is some dk4k6jf8395kf error and it turns the damn thing off! (This close to chucking the whole GD thing out the window!) Now i am going to delete PNStein and the little program and reload PNStein onto the Palm and try again later. Why did i volunteer to be a guinea pig? :(

[Scott_93TT]

Ahhh... I was just going to bring this back up after I saw the thread on 3si again today.

So I guess the problem is the program? At least the cable seems to work.

You volunteered because you want to be the first in Canada! :)

[ShdwMastr]

Let us know how you make out :) Spring has sprung, and I would like to try out some logging :)

[Fast Eddie]

I have Done it!!!!!

Still having problems with the damn Palm'N'Stein SW. (It is obvious why that crap is 'freeware', But i hooked up the old laptop and the TMO SW works great! The hardest part is interpreting what all this data means. ie. how much knock is acceptable? what is the max injector pulse width i can run before needing bigger squirters?... I have just done one log so far, and it was just on my way over to my friends house, so it isnt pedal to the metal or anything, but you can take a look here. Only logged 4 parameters so it would be easy to see it working while i drive, but now i see how easy it is to simply save it, and analyze it later, im going to log lots more at once :)

the first set of humps[red] (why 2 i dont know) is 1st gear. i brought it up to 5500. Dont remember if it was WOT, but knock is 0 [dkgrn] and injectors are reasonable [purple]. second set of humps is second gear and i remember pushing it to about 7000, so that is WOT. Injectors look like they are prett much peaking, and there is knock pretty much the whole way. :eek: time to back off the boost a bit, since i have no fuel controller to play with.
Anyway take a look, and i will try to get more runs tonight after the computer charges up.

[Scott_93TT]

Cool!
Sounds like we really do need to get the pocketlogger SW, since everyone says it is SOOO much better than the others.

Why did you just measure injector pulse width? Can you not log IDC? That would give you a better idea.

I don't know the formula to figure out injector duty cycle from that, but I'm sure you can. I hear that you don't want the injectors to go above 80% IDC because if you do, they are open all the time (ie. trying to flow more than they are rated for by remaining open so often)

In terms of knock, you look generally ok. I have heard (and 3SI will back this up) that you don't need to really worry about knock until it gets over 10-12. Since you only see that at such high RPM's, it is also possible that you have worn motor mounts, etc. which can accentuate any noise your engine makes at WOT and therefore really be a much smaller amount of knock.

Anyway, I'm clearly no expert, but it still looks pretty good.

[Fast Eddie]

You cant log duty cycle straight out, but since it is a function of how long it is open for, compared to how long it possibly can be open for, it is easy to calculate. (RPM * IPW)/1200=IDC. I did another good run last night and got WOT accel in first, second and up to near 5000 in third. (I will attach both a screen shot for those without the software, and the actual log for those with the TMO software.) When i went about calculating the IDC, i naturally used the number when the injector was open the longest. this gave me a duty cycle of 99.75%. I then did another spot and got in the 80% range. another and got over 100%. So to get an idea of what was really happening, i took all the numbers and threw them on an Excel chart. Now the numbers actually mean something. (I guess i will attach that too, so others can just dump thier numbers in, and it will pop up on the chart :) )

Anyway, This is the same day as my last log, and now there is no knock. got colder later in the day, so maybe that explains why...What else.... My O2 voltage is running .94-.96 which means very rich i think. This confuses me because my IDC shows its time for bigger injectors, but at the same time i need to lean out my fuel curve?:confused: Any ideas on that one?

[Fast Eddie]

.
This is a screen shot of the Excel graph since it wont let me post an Excel file or the actual TMO log :(
(if you want the actual file to use, i can email it to you. only took 10 mins to make. Same goes for the actual log file)

[Scott_93TT]

Your O2's are where you want to be, that's for sure.

I don't know how you get over 100% IDC? Must be something not quite exact with that formula.

Clearly you need bigger injectors though... What boost are you actually running, is it the 14.5 that you've spoken of?

Interesting...

I bet you could make a good amount more power with a controller and some bigger injectors!

[Fast Eddie]

The formula is correct. The pecent is simply a function of how long the valve is open vs how long the injector is squirting. If it squirts longer than the valve is open, you get over 100% duty cycle, but the more research i do on this, the less accurate duty cycle becomes. Pulse width tells you exactly what the injector is doing. duty cycle doesnt tell you how much fuel there is actually going into your engine, its just a relationship to RPM.
80% at 2000 RPM is actually more than double the fuel of 80% at 6000, so its a relative number and not an actual measurement.

"One might think the max amount of fuel an injector can squirt into the cylinder would be limited to the time that the intake valve is open. But that is a very short time relative to the entire four-stroke time that is really available. The injector can squirt fuel onto the back of the injector while it is closed and let it pile up there. This is actually done almost all the time at RPMs over 5000 (maybe lower, too) and is the reason why the intake valves get all crudded up over time with an accumulation of carbon. This is also why you should check and clean your intake valves occasionally."

Actually there is tons of information that is usefull so i'll just post the links to where Im learning all this:

http://www.vfaq.com/TMO/Tuning-Tips.htm
See INJECTORS section

http://www.stealth316.com/2-tmo2.htm

There is sooo much to learn, but im trying to make sense of it all

:confused:

[Fast Eddie]

Originally posted by Scott_93TT
Your O2's are where you want to be, that's for sure.

Clearly you need bigger injectors though... What boost are you actually running, is it the 14.5 that you've spoken of?

I bet you could make a good amount more power with a controller and some bigger injectors!

Actually its of strange because i hadnt touched the boost controller, and earlier in the day i was reading 14-15 psi. during the later runs, it never went past 13 at WOT. It was cooler during the second runs, maybe that has something to do with it. :confused:

Also thats kind of what i had said in my post previous. my O2's show a rich condition. Meaning i have plenty of fuel with my current injectors. Yet the duty cycle shows them working too hard.... So in fact i have to move to bigger injectors, but send in less fuel than i am now in stock form? Maybe you are right. Maybe there is something wrong with the Duty Cycle calculations....

[Scott_93TT]

Damn, this shit is confusing.

I'm glad you are really learning about all this stuff, though. :D
You'll be the guy to go to when the rest of us start tuning!

I understand what you are saying about the formula, just takes a bit to wrap one's head around it.


As you say, you have plenty of fuel, but the injectors are working too hard. Clearly you need bigger injectors (so they won't have to work so hard) and some controller to ensure you are working most efficiently.

Plus, then you won't have to be running too rich all the time, which lowers your performance!
:)

[ShdwMastr]

So who's all interested in datalogging? Perhaps we can setup a Canada3si group buy with MirageCorp... their auto-on cable looks impressive, and they are also developing their own palm software for us...

MirageCorps Website:
http://www.miragecorp.com/automotive

I'm going to call around my suppliers and see if I can get a deal on the palm serial cables...

[Scott_93TT]

That sounds awesome!!!

[ShdwMastr]

Add yourself to tha list then!


1. ShdwMastr

[Scott_93TT]

Sounds good. But I don't have time to research now. Does it attach to both Palm and notebook? Etc.
What are the details.

1. ShdwMastr
2. Agent Cooper

[ShdwMastr]

Both Palm and PC :)

For palm you will need the palm serial cable (powerless hotsync cable) as the datalogging cable has a DB-9 serial interface.

[Fast Eddie]

Like i said previously, it is a different cable for palm application, and laptop application. you cannot get one and 'adapt' it to fit the other. I was part of the R&D for this thing, the pins on the serial port connection are in different locations. if you get a palm cable, you can only use it for a palm, and vise versa.

Doesnt really have anything to do with the Hotsync cable, just something to keep in mind.:)

[ShdwMastr]

Ahh, their website poorly states this, and should be corrected.

Maybe drop him a line and get him to state this clearly on his website.

If it is just a simple issue of pinouts on the DB-9 connector, this can be easily solved with a DB-9 (from male/to male) adapter with the pinouts changed.

Thus.. buy a palm cable.. use it on your palm.. then if you want to use it on your laptop.. put the adapter on.. and your ready to go or vise versa.

[Fast Eddie]

Originally posted by ShdwMastr
Ahh, their website poorly states this, and should be corrected.

Maybe drop him a line and get him to state this clearly on his website.

If it is just a simple issue of pinouts on the DB-9 connector, this can be easily solved with a DB-9 (from male/to male) adapter with the pinouts changed.

Thus.. buy a palm cable.. use it on your palm.. then if you want to use it on your laptop.. put the adapter on.. and your ready to go or vise versa.

He knows this. I have been in contact with him for near 2 months now and about 15 e-mails back and forth, working out issues with the 'pre-release' model. I got mine early because I am trying to review it for the Canadian forum.
male/male adptor wont work. yes the pinouts need to be changed, but i have yet to come across an adaptor that is not a moulded plastic shell which cannot me opened. He is going to produce these "datalog adaptors' however, not sure what the timeframe on these will be.
It CAN be done. I had run solder wire from pinsocket to pin socket, wrapped in elec tape, and connected everything together. I am just sure that nobody wants to spend 80$ canadian, then have to buy adaptors, wire, multimter, and spend time jimmying the thing together. Im not saying its not a good product (I will post an entire review on the cable once i get my Clutch fixed) I am just recommending that you know what instrument you are going to use to do the logging and get the appropriate cable. Dont put much thought into easily jumping back and forth.

[Scott_93TT]

So FastEddie,

Where's this at? Any word on whether his is going to do this soon?

How is the datalogging going for you???